Dear Joseph,
I only wrote my post after reading Dennis', but I'm not going to delete it because I wasted too much energy to even come up with one passable and coherent line . But even though poorly done, my intention was to go exactly along the line you''ve eloquently set. I thank you and appreciate your eloquence in being able to convey such powerful message in a seemingly fashion.
Wow, I love what you wrote, and am very thankful you did not delete it! It contributed greatly to what I was endeavoring to say, and what you wrote (I feel) amplified and enhanced my writing. Well done, friend!
I loved it too Doles and although you are always claiming to be a poor writer, I do not see any evidence of that on this forum. You have indeed contributed to the discussion and added a great deal of wisdom as has Joseph. Yes we need to have those uncomfortable discussions and if done so with love, respect and wisdom, they will further all our growth. For that reason I will not make any attempt at deleting this thread. It's a valuable mirror indicating where we are all at. Lots of meaningful and important points were made and rather than creating a negative emotional undertone, we all managed to articulate our thoughts in mostly constructive ways. Our humanity shines through and that includes our vulnerability and our strengths. It's all grist for the mill. Thanks for contributing. With love and appreciation....Al
Well, i find this all very interesting indeed, and a departure from the past showing some growth. i also have participated in several forums and could myself do a rather large "personality profile" on those whom have made certain assertions. i find that those who have commented have been open and transparent, even though it seemed clear to me that Al (in his first post) was attempting to make the point of staying focused on the real things of spiritual growth.
i belong to another spiritual progression fellowship where we have a long standing "tradition" (the 12th Tradition), ...."reminding us to place principles before personalities".
i do find, as in the past, some commentaries, rather than being "blunt" to be causticly assaultive, degrading and dismissive.
It is the most difficult of things for human beings to even begin the process of self-examination. It is a cornerstone of spiritual growth to learn to seek the truth about all things, even the inherited thoughts and beliefs in error and un-truth (about ourselves as human beings, as well as others). It has been espoused by buddah, Jesus, (removed the mote (or timber) from thine own eye first), Shakespheare, Socrates ("The un-examined life is hardly worth living") and Plato, to name just a few.
So, most people go around projecting their own caca onto others, while having a blind spot for their own behaviors and projections.
Many of the deeper projections arise from the essential programings of worthlessness cause by religious indoctrination to go to how we view ourselves as human beings, although what is usually projected from this, what might be labeled as insecurity, is superiority. This sometimes appears as what some would call arrogance or conceit, but is really only low self worth. This is where the competitiveness comes from.
None the less, the point is ..................................... Happiness is an inside job!!!!!! (and happiness is about the channeling and projection of love. Love is its own fulfillment) So, as the saying goes; if any negative emotion arises, it is usually a good indicator to be examined as to the thoughts and beliefs (spirit) behind the emotion (sensation or feeling) as to the root cause within ones self.
We are all, after all, in this big spaceship hurtling through space together. The human race is unlike the spirit world in that there are many levels of progression here all together. It is a spiritual Law that one may not have the perception of the spiritual progression of one that is more progressed. Argue with it if you like.
with much love to all, and my support in your spiritual progress,
brother dave k.
What a fascinating series of posts!
My life allows me to dip into the Forum only intermittantly, because of care-giving responsibilities, so I have been "away" from it for more than a week. This rich discussion is a fine reward for re-visiting the Forum!
I am very appreciative of what you write, Joseph, and you, Doles, and you, Dave! I share your understanding of how a person's perceptions of others reveals more of the perceiver's own inner world, than of he/she who is perceived. My work as a therapist and educator taught me over and over again, that only by making changes in one's inner world, does one change one's perceptions of the outer world. As Dave has pointed out in multiple ways on various threads in this Forum, that involves taking responsibility for the perceptions one constructs about others' behaviours and statements. Perceptions are just that, our creations, often chosen in order to accumulate evidence for beliefs and biases we already carry. We construct our own reality. It is our work, our responsibility, to reflect on the beliefs we carry (and the perceptions they give rise to) to evaluate whether they serve or impede our central intention of growing in the Love.
Other points made that resonate strongly with me are that the health of a Forum is revealed not in the conformity and uniformity of opinions, but in voicing diverse views respectfully. You may be familiar with the four stages of group life; namely, "forming, norming, storming and performing. "Forming" is when people come together with common purpose; "norming" is when guidelines for getting along are established, either implicitly or explicitly; "storming" happens when the diverse views of group members are safely expressed, and leads to "performing", the stage in which the group is achieving its intended purpose. The stages are not linear, they overlap, and re-occur as the group matures and grows.
Having known Al for 40 or so years, I can count on him to be honest, to speak and behave with integrity, and to hold Love central in his daily life. When I read his comments on the Shroud, I interpreted them to mean that his source of inspiration was the felt presence of Jesus, not the material evidence of Jesus' burial covering. I know Al to be humble, so knew he was simply sharing what motivates him, rather than speaking authoritatively or prescriptively to others, as another post might be suggesting.
Personally, what compels me on this journey in the Love, are my felt experiences. And I often have to work hard at having them, meaning I have to make considerable effort to disengage from the supremacy of my mind, from feelings of fear, from the challenges of daily life to enter the Peace and Presence in which Love is real to me. I am not there enough! What I am saying is that evidence that appeals to my mind doesn't increase my faith, though I can see how it would for others, especially when that evidence resonates with their religious or cultural backgrounds. Having a Jewish upbringing, even the word "Jesus" triggers quite different associations for me than it does for those with a Christian orientation. I had to get beyond those barriers. The felt experiences of the Love, the Peace, the Presence are what started me on this journey, and what help me continue with it, rather than experiences that appeal to my mind. So, for me, the catalyst for growing my faith is changing my soul through the Love, which in turn, changes my mind.
My way is right only for me; it just happens that in respect to the Shroud, it is more similar to Al's way than to Geoff's. What ever nourishes peoples' faith is fine with me! We are all growing toward the Light, each in a way that fits for our unique selves. It is cause for rejoicing that the universe provides us with a diversity of evidence that speaks to our individual needs!
Thanks to you all (Geoff, Kathy, Zara, Elizabeth, Zach, Dennis, Al, Doles, Dave, Joseph...hope I haven't left anyone out!) for everything you contributed! Reading this dialogue allows me to discover not only how others see things, but also what I think and believe, which I view as a central benefit of participating in this Forum. Knowing myself is essential for the work only I can choose to do (with the Creator's help), of transforming myself through the Love!
What a marvelous post! Thank you for writing what you did. I did not know your background as a Jewish woman. I can only imagine the triggers the word "Jesus" had for you. It is also hard for us with a Christian background, simply because the name "Jesus" has so many different aspects of meaning for each one of us, some of them in 'conflict' with others. At last count there are at least 35,000 different Christian denominations or groups, all with their own 'pet' doctrines and dogmas.
Terry, I really appreciate the flavor you bring to the table of this forum. It is most likely the influence that I feel of your background as a therapist and educator. I really liked how you brought into your writing today the aspects of the dynamics of group life. I had not heard of the four stages "forming, norming, storming and performing," and your elaboration of this was illuminating. Thank you for sharing this.
I could write more, but for now I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your presence here and for contributing your post today.
Dear Joseph,
Thank you for your loving response!
Speaking of the meaning words have for each of us, your name has a special meaning for me, as my father's name is Joseph! My Dad was not an observant Jew, but had a deep love for the Creator, a profound gratitude for the gift of life. He looked for and found ways of giving back to people what he felt G-d had given to him. I discovered only after his death how loved and respected he was amongst his peers for the generosity he showed, especially to his countrymen, immigrants who hadn't been as fortunate as he had been in prospering in this country.
You are far more articulate than my Father, who never learned English well; both of you have in common a generosity of spirit that comes from an evolved soul.
I feel nourished by your presence in and contributions to this Forum!
With love,
Terry
I smiled a great deal while I read your post about your father and the name Joseph. I believe I would have liked him a great deal. What country did he immigrate from? I am a first generation American; my father was born in Hungary. And the name Joseph I have loved and thankful that my parents gave me this name. I am the last of 12 children, similar to the Joseph in the story given in Genesis. I have always had an identity fixation about the Biblical Joseph. But then I also had the same affinity (but not as powerful) with the father of Jesus. The first self-published book I wrote has the name "Faces of Joseph;" it is a story of my life prior to the knowledge of the Divine Love. I titled it "Faces" because in my early boyhood days I was "Joey." This then transitioned to "Joe" and I was called by that name for 50 years. But as I grew older I tired of "Joe" and began wearing the hat of "Joseph," which I love. I wonder if your father went through any of this, or was he always Joseph to friends and family?
Thank you so much for your post and the experiences you shared.
With regard to responsibility (a word that many people fear and dispise), in the At-Onement Affinity community in Santa Cruz, CA. during the mid seventies, i think that it was George Stokes who coined it as the ability to respond (in difference to a mental reaction). So love is the ability to respond to people, and situations from the soul with the innate atributes of Love, Goodness and Caring, etc.
There is some concern on my part about the "perceptions", that sometimes comes from the understanding or misunderstanding of the mental health (sometimes an oxymoron .... lol) commuinty. i would offer that the souls perceptions of love are true in regards to the conditions of others, but always come with empathy, compassion and mercy (non-judgemental). There are people also who in the course of their lives who have learned the mental disipline and skill to simply observe behaviors and situations and over time to understand their indications in terms of the spiritual dis-easement that in my experience we are all subject to as the result of the inherited and programmed thoughts and beliefs prevelant in the human condition, or as the spirits say in the Messages, the "nature" of the human mind. Learning when our souls perceptions and the observations of our mind are true and accurate, and beginning to trust ourselves, especially our true self, is essential to not only our "sanity", but spiritual growth.
i wanted to thank you for sharing your experience of Al, and your soul perceptions and observations, as i have never met him. Early on in his posts on other forums, i did observe and percieve in his expressed language, his willingness to be honest and vulnerable in his sharing, something that many people who have not understood or taken on the real work of spiritual progression, do not (and could not) understand, and often interpret as a weakness, rather than the strength that it is.
LIfe swept me away again today before I could continue this conversation; happily, I have a few minutes now before being caught up in the "flow" once again!
My Dad was from Lodz, Poland, one of only 4 members of his extended family to escape the Holocaust by arriving in Canada in 1929. In English, he was called "Joe", in his first language, Yiddish, he was "Josel". Someday, when we meet Joseph, I hope we will share stories about the "journey of our names"; I look forward to that and before then, to reading the book you wrote about growing into your name!
I liked what you wrote, Dave, about the inherent contradictions in the so-called "mental health" community. We could have a juicy conversation about the incongruencies in "mental health"; here in Canada, the mental health system is broken and in itself is enough to drive a person crazy!
What I do want to comment on in the few minutes I have, is where I am now with respect to the topic of this thread. I have re-read the entire thread and gained even more with a second reading. I am so glad the thread wasn't aborted and that we continued to provide space for holding the tensions of different views, because from that process, I was helped to see beyond my initial responses, stimulated to think about things I otherwise might not have considered.
I now have a deeper appreciation for what I can learn from those of you with a Christian acculturation, especially one that includes a knowledge of the Bible. I can glimpse how meaningful the discovery of the Shroud is for those with the "back story" and how rich it is to look with "educated eyes" at this amazing validation of the historical narrative. I hope to learn from you through this Forum and in person, as we come together for Retreats and other gatherings. I want to cultivate my ability to see from mulitiple perspectives, as I appreciate how much they add to and "mature" my own.
So thanks, all, for persisting and having faith in the inherent good nature of everyone, so the conversation could unfold in this healthy way!
With love,
Terry
. But even though poorly done, my intention was to go exactly along the line you''ve eloquently set. I thank you and appreciate your eloquence in being able to convey such powerful message in a seemingly fashion.
