Shroud of Turin

[Doles]

You have managed to put a light note on that post by Al. I was so upset I did not post a reply.

-------You old timers can afford to do that. I haven't had enough under my belt to meddle here. But seriously, I think Dennis' point is and should be well taken. I remember back in the days how much a treasure it was for me to hear for the first time that a historian (Josephus) had made mention of Jesus in his writings...even if in passively. Oh these were the times when I was so desperately looking for some confirmation that there was indeed a Jesus! I had put so much stake on there being a shred of truth to what I believed. But it was also a moment of great emotional trials for me as I was getting so discouraged because I simply couldn't find what I was looking for in the church...granted, I didn't quite know what I was looking for. I just knew deep inside there had to be more than I was given. But when I found that piece of evidence, I held on to it for a good while.
It's amazing how some evidence doesn't resonate with me as before. I can't even begin to explain how I grabbed on Jesus' words in the Padgett Messages. I just felt them to be real I guess. And since then I don't even find as much value anymore in any evidence regarding him. As much religiously minded as I was, although gradually to a lesser extent, I couldn't even imagine how disappointed I would be if someone were to tell me not put much value to that reference in Josephus' writings. Of course I'm in Al's camp (probably not the correct wording because it's not a question of right or wrong I think). Nowadays, my soul hungers for more deep spiritual encounters (or so I think/feel?). But to not understand the meaning of such huge finding should it turn out (as Geoff hinted) to be real would be more than so many could bear. And it would probably do a disservice to a huge majority as well. Having said that, boy how amazing is it that I could actually be treating so nonchalantly a shroud that could turn out to be Jesus' burial cloth! Wow! I hope this means I've grown somewhat in whatever direction I'd taken. Oh Praise Be to the Great Source of it all! Please allow me this little moment of worship...even in my ignorance!

[AlFike]

Sorry to offend but there you are this crusty old protestant can put his foot in it at times. We all do have Jesus close to us and if the shroud helps to bring his presence closer then I'm for it. Personally it does nothing for me but as one who does feel the closeness of spirit I suppose I came across a little arrogant and I apologize for taking the wind out of your sails Dennis and raising Geoff's blood pressure. Very insensitive of me. I hope you have all calmed down and can see that I was trying to direct your focus onto the possibilities of knowing Jesus in this personal way but obviously missed the point that the shroud was facilitating this in ways that it does not for me. Again we are all different and I'm sorry to offend with my different perspective. God bless for now.........Al

[brother dave k.]

Kathryn, i loved your post! here you go [Like] ... lol. Well fellas, i must say that i very much liked the discussion and felt that there were some good points made by everyone. What ever inspires us to open up our souls, both to the Masters presence, or to our Creator and the Great Divine Love, whether that be music, or some old relic of cloth, would be a good thing, though i'm absolutely sure that the Master would want us to revere God, rather than him, even as the Divine Angel that he was. i'm also sure that the Master would want us to love him, as that brings us closer to him and more open to his spiritual inspirations and continued urgings to pray, pray, pray. When we do pray, he does come very close to us, giving us the benefit of the Divine Love in his soul, and his presence uplifts and helps our prayers to the Father. We become one in the Christ Spirit of Divine Love.

with the Spirit of Christ,

your brother, dave k.

[Zara B]

Hi all,

I have had time to reflect about Al's comment.

I know Al, that communication on the web is still a new thing for you, but there is an emerging pattern that you may like to look at: Whenever there is a subject that holds no interest for you, you are quick to give your opinion about that, and then sometimes an apology follows. On one hand you tell us that you are the one who is to receive only Celestial communications, and on the other hand you show a complete lack of respect for anything else anyone else might hold an interest in. No better examples than your comments on the UBook and this Shroud thread.

This moment is a great opportunity for you to contemplate how communication works among those who know about the Divine Love and who love Jesus, whether one can feel his presence or not. If you continue to be arrogant and highly opinionated on themes that you don't know much about, then the readers -- whilst we all love you -- may come to conclude that you are only interested in yourself and the power that you assert as an upper-hand over everyone, that is that you are 'the one' who is to receive Celestial messages.

It is a good thing that your comment has sparked such a consistent response from everyone else. And you are entitled to continue on as you wish, but at the risk of people -- who may offer only love and support for your Sanctuary site -- to leave looking for more positive places to experience and share what they are learning about living with the Love. This is what happened on the DLF.

If you decide that all of us have nothing really to contribute, then that is OK. But I have found that in some of the threads where you write the conversation generally ends up where everyone is talking about you and not the bigger picture.

I met you and Jeanne early this year and we had a lovely time and it would be so nice that you take a little time to think about the kind of contribution you might like to make with your site as you and we all have a responsibility which is to be of service and to know that another person may be reading our post for the first time, and learning about the Divine Love through the words that we write!

Respectfully,
Zara

[AlFike]

I'm sorry you feel the way you do Zara and yes I have lots to learn about communication. This is all new to me and I must say over the past year I have thoroughly enjoyed being part of this forum and meeting all of you, even some in person. I do tend to dash out my opinions at possibly the risk of offending some. I don't however think I have been able to offend everyone at one go. Maybe that is coming. . I am an opinionated person and I say what I think. This may cause controversy but I do not agree that I have set myself up as the go to guy and therefore must be tolerated. I hope all are free to express their opinions and even vent a little. We are all human here and have our blind spots and our peculiarities. I consider myself equal to all here and have no special place other than as a moderator. I try to contribute on a daily basis in order to keep the conversation going and hopefully encourage others. Sometimes I fail at my duties, other times I believe I am successful. But you can be sure that I am committed to doing what I am doing here. In the process, I hope to grow and learn from others and I hope others may grow and learn from me. I know I come across as over confident and self assured even arrogant at times and I will try to work on that. I know my enthusiasm regarding my spiritual life may come across as boasting. I will try to be more humble and leave room for others.

It is hard sitting here in this room and trying to convey in a way that is as passionate and loving as can be the understandings and thoughts that I have about the Divine Love whilst only seeing the words typed out on this screen. It feels at times like a one way dialogue as we all need to wait for the next installment. Face to face is so much more dynamic. I hope as time goes by, I will be more comfortable with the rhythm of this connection and more cognizant of who I am connecting with. I want to thank you Zara for your feedback. It helps to paint a clearer picture beyond the words. I am also quite willing to step back for a while and let others have a go at it without me if they feel I am crowding the space. As for my opinions, I will continue to give my honest take of whatever is being discussed and hopefully I will learn the art of diplomacy which I do very much know I am lacking. It has been my Achilles heal for most of my life. Just ask Jeanne I am grateful for all those here who are tolerant of my awkward moments and brazen opinions. Maybe in time this will change with greater Love within. We all have our gifts, some can write in sweeter tones and give great comfort by this, others go where angels fear to tread. Unfortunately the fool within does tend to stray into the latter territory at times. In a more perfect world, I would say the most perfect things but as I have maintained all along, I am no angel just another soul trying to make sense of the world.

God bless for now and I look forward to getting feedback from others. It is important to have these honest dialogues and get to the meat of the matter. There may be pain involved but I know God will guide us all in the right direction. With love........Al

[Geoff]

Dear Al,

I found this a very strange conversation. Pretty much as strange as one I had about ten years ago, with a friend I made in 1973. We did an MBA together, and he credits me with keeping him in the program, when he wanted to leave. I considered him to be amazingly competent, and told him so, which seemed to surprise him. You see he did not have a degree, while the vast majority of us had bachelor degrees. He was only going to earn a "diploma" for sitting the same course we did, simply because we had the prerequisite degree. Yeah I thought he was way more competent than 98% of my degreed colleagues, and I have never had reason to change that opinion in the following 40 years.

Anyway, about 10 or 15 years ago he learned I was once a Catholic. His reaction was almost instinctive, even though he does not practise his religion at all. "Christ Cutler, a CATHO!!!" (Note that Aussies invariably add an "o" to anything!!)

It really puzzled me. Yeah we were taught that Proto's had cloven hoofs, but frankly, I have grown out of that - a very long time ago. Its simply not a filter I apply in my life. But it seems that many Proto's have not grown out of it? I wonder why. Maybe its like the Kiwis? (New Zealanders) The way they carry on surprises most Aussies. We frankly don't give a damm. Maybe its an underdog thing?

I am assuming your reaction here is simply because Rome owns the shroud? The real irony is I would be ex-communicated based on my beliefs. Its not just bluntness on your part I suspect, cause thats something I recognise, being an expert myself.

By the way, our anniversary of this site is August 1!!!!

hugs
Geoff

[DennisT]

Well I love the continued discussion going on here, and I thank you Zara for your post as it is on point in respect that others will be drawn here to read and learn about Divine Love, just as I was a just nine months or so ago.

Al, I love you dear brother, and I have learned so much from you, Jeanne, and all the members here. It is very difficult to embed any tone or humor into these posts, so they can easily be misunderstood or taken the wrong way. There was some tongue-in-cheek wording in my response to your initial post, and I hope that my gentle approach was understood by those who read it.

Geoff, I've said it before and it's worth repeating here, without you, your work, and your wonderful website I would still be venerating the shroud in my mistaken Catholic beliefs. Instead, I have a whole new spiritual life, and the Padgett messages have confirmed that very few of my catholic beliefs were true, but the shroud is a reality.

Btw Al, your initial message did not fall completely on deaf ears. I have started asking Jesus to join me in prayer, and indeed pray for me, in my prayers to receive more of the Father's Divine Love. I hope that someday my soul condition will be such that I will perceive the presence of our dear brother, Jesus, as well as other Celestials, and someday even the presence of our Creator. But as Brother Dave said, whether it be music, words, books, pictures or even an old relic, if it brings us closer to receiving more of the Divine Love, I'm all for it.

Love to all,
Dennis

[Doles]

Dennis wrote,

It is very difficult to embed any tone or humor into these posts, so they can easily be misunderstood or taken the wrong way.

In fact, my exact attempt at an earlier response to a Geoff's post. I have to say though I have mixed feelings about these last posts. There were a couple of sentences that caught my attention and made me wonder if there's more than a mere philosophical difference going on here. I may be reading them wrong, but these particular lines from Zara(a person whose posts I usually look forward to reading) I couldn't quite make out:

....On one hand you tell us that you are the one who is to receive only Celestial communications, and on the other hand you show a complete lack of respect for anything else anyone else might hold an interest in. No better examples than your comments on the UBook and this Shroud thread. ... If you continue to be arrogant and highly opinionated on themes that you don't know much about, then the readers -- whilst we all love you -- may come to conclude that you are only interested in yourself and the power that you assert as an upper-hand over everyone, that is that you are 'the one' who is to receive Celestial messages...."

Hmm! Obviously you all know each other very well. So my take may be the complete opposite of what the meanings pertain to. I'm a simple man...so you'll have to forgive my simplicity. But I'll say this: I usually find Geoff quite blunt. At times I even cringe to think whether his bluntness may turn some off. And yet, believe when I tell you this: when a question is posed I usually come later to read what Geoff has to say about it. I just feel like he's simply a gentle giant. I've come to getting used to his bluntness I must say.
Ok, I can't list all of you! But if there isn't more than a mere philosophical difference going on, I would simply find it sad if Al were to be silenced or even held back. Again, I'm just describing people based on my mere imagination. But I love you ALL! Perhaps it's a curse being too simple minded. But could it also be a little blessing in disguise? Please let everybody loose! I guess I wanted to say please let Al loose but who am I to say? Please don't take the fifth! Prod, correct, nudge, exhort, teach! It means something to the least among you! Ahh, I didn't come close to really express myself how I would've wanted it. But if my little prayer means anything I hope you'll hear love in my writing.

[AlFike]

Actually Doles I don't think Zara knows me well at all, we met briefly for an evening in Melbourne last January and I'm also beginning to wonder if Geoff does either. I think I am pretty much misunderstood and a bit slighted by these past posts but then again if you offer up your opinions, you can't expect others to go along 100%. My intentions are to carry on here with the realization that because of this restricted form of communication that it is very easy to get the wrong idea about someone or their intentions. At least we are all still talking and that is crucial for all of us. Thanks for your comments everybody. The conversation continues. May God's Love also flow and give us greater insight and understanding. Much love to you all.....Al

[Geoff]

I usually find Geoff quite blunt. At times I even cringe to think whether his bluntness may turn some off.

Dear Doles, yes I am aware of it. Its partly my heritage - South African. We never saw the point of being misunderstood. LOL. I still don't see the point of being misunderstood. But I do try (even if I fail sometimes) to be aware of what others hold dear. Especially in respect of beliefs.

I would simply find it sad if Al were to be silenced or even held back.

aaah no, what we are saying that the reverse could happen. That Al can, or could shut down things, seeing as he is the board owner, and when he pronounces on something.... What we are trying to do, is make sure none are silenced because Al does not agree. Another thing that folks should be aware of, probably 50 people will read these posts and NEVER post for every one who does.

but then again if you offer up your opinions, you can't expect others to go along 100%.

Actually Al, you should have no expectation that they will - at all. This is a board to SHARE views, not to be battered into submission. For one thing, thats not love in action. It reminds me a bit of my schooling. We were always taught to preface a religious question with "What does the church teach..." No one ever pronounced their own opinion. Well, in this DL world, we are each able to have our own opinions.

My intentions are to carry on here with the realization that because of this restricted form of communication that it is very easy to get the wrong idea about someone or their intentions.

Indeed. And I have another suggestion. Read your post an hour later, and if no one has yet commented, feel free to change it. As you are a board moderator, you can edit any post at any time. One of the reasons you are getting a hammering is that I still doubt you can see why some folks find calling the shroud an old blanket is offensive? Even if they are "Cathos"


hugs
Geoff