Talking about spiritual things as opposed to praying

[Geoff]

Over the years that I have participated in Divine Love forums, from time to time a poster has thrown a nuke into a conversation. It usually goes like this:

You guys are all in your heads, stop thinking, reading, and talking so much and spend more time praying for the love.

The result is inevitably to bring the conversation to an abrupt halt. In one case, on the Divine Love mail server Doug Oreck had created, it died, never to be resurrected again. Yes one person killed his outreach. Because very few folks are going to stand up to that sort of statement, because they then are exposed as being "in their mind, and lacking soul development". It is really a domineering statement that carries a large amount of aggression in it, no matter how phrased.

I will now look at this statement carefully, from a number of perspectives, and yes, I am going to use my mortal mind. LOL.

Firstly, is there any truth in the statement? The answer is obviously there is, which is what causes it to be such an effective nuke. But is it wholly the truth, or merely partly the truth? I would submit its only partially the truth, and the only part that is true, is that we can all of us, spend more time praying. It does not of course prove that those engaged in the conversation are personally lacking in this regard, although the suggestion is certainly there that it's the participants who need more love. And that if they stopped THIS activity, and spent the time more productively, they would be better off. So is the objector really coming from a perspective of LOVE?

Lets look at motivation here. Is the person who is objecting, primarily motivated by love for the deluded and misdirected posters? Actually real love allows each of us to be misguided, and does not interfere unless asked. We already know Father allows each of his children total free will, and we know the Celestials follow that dictum. Is this interfering in the free will choices of individuals? Yes it certainly is. So is the motivation really love? Almost certainly not. So what is the real motivation? Well I don't believe we can guess that, but I have observed in two cases that the individuals who have done this, were what I would call fundamentalist followers of the Padgett messages. Were they upset that the conversation challenged their personal view points? We can't say.

Do we have any comment from Celestials in this matter of using your material mind? Yes we do, but of course its also possible to find messages chiding Padgett for reading certain books. However he was not chided for wanting to know the truth, he was merely told that the particular books he had chosen would not help, in fact might hinder his progress. So it's not that the Celestials have ever said “Put away your critical faculties” in fact this is what Judas said:

You are one of those intellectuals who need proof of everything. But don't worry, this is not bad, just continue this way. It is a legitimate way of approaching truth. It is not the easiest way, nor is it the quickest way, but it is legitimate.

And again:

Therefore, considering that belief eclipses reason, it is clear that disputes over religion lead nowhere. The discussion may widen your own horizon, and you may also contribute data to enlarge the understanding of other people, but that is the maximum you will be able to achieve. You will never be able to “to convince.”

So, we are agreed, that experiencing the Divine Love is the ONLY way to convince folks, but that said, there is nothing here that says we can't discuss things, and demonstrate our love while doing that. Its also true that Judas has emphasised that soul development is vital to understand deep truths:

In the messages, we have repeated many times that the spiritual contents that we try to communicate cannot be understood by your material mind - only the soul can assimilate them. Therefore you should understand that any intention of integrating spirituality into a conventional system of investigation will fail hopelessly.

There is no suggestion by any of us who “share” on forums like this, that this sharing is a substitute for soul development via praying. But it is fellowship, it is also sharing in a loving way, things that we care about. It has value both for us, and those who read but don’t post. It's not hard to discover that sharing about things you care about is rarely done in a loving way on the internet. Rather the opposite is true. And here I would like to add a personal insight. When I was searching for the truth, I had a standard question. It was a question I did not know the answer to, but I believed that when I found people who were “on the right track” they would give me an answer I could recognise as being “advanced”. Every place I arrived at I asked the same question. The answer to this question, at that time, was NOT in the Padgett Messages, although Judas has since answered it.

Had I not got a good answer, its possible I may have moved on, because I did not, in the first three or four days of reviewing two Padgett web sites, find anything compelling. So getting an “excellent” answer to this question, certainly gave me renewed vigour to look at the P Messages. The exact question I asked is not important, its the point that it required, in my own case, the personal interaction with two or three followers to keep me interested. And that has also been my experience with new people who start to post questions. They are looking to feel the water, and to the extent that the fellowship as evidenced on that site is warm and supportive, and non judgemental, it keeps people feeling right about things. Sadly this sort of “nuke” response does the opposite.

There is another thing, and this is particularly pertinent at this time. Followers of the messages rarely have a number of folks whose company they share regularly, who also follow the messages. An exception is the Gibsons and Vancouver folks, and I submit that the fellowship they share, has a lot to do with the strength of that group. In other words, fellowship is vital if we are to be effective as a group. Forums such as this one offer that to those of us no matter where we are in the world, and no matter what time difference lies between us.

Finally of course it is reasonable to point out that we like to tell people that our messages support reason and critical thinking. We ourselves found that there was truth in the messages initially by using our material minds. Who are we to now tell people that we should drop the very faculties that brought us here? And what message does it send to those unfamiliar with the messages that its best to not examine and talk about the truths?

[AlFike]

This is well thought out Geoff. I for one wish to support others in any way I can. If this support requires a more mindful response to a question then I am willing to go there although intellectualism is not my strong suit. The mind will never stop questioning as long as it has not found absolute truth. That, as Judas says, could take a very long time. My truth now comes from experiencing the grace of God's Love. In that flow comes many insights and truths that I would find hard to put into words but never the less try to do so. Words are so very inadequate in this regard but this venue can only support words. Thus we are left with reasoning and word play which are attributes of the material mind. We are limited by this fact and are all stuck in the realm of the intellect.

I am very fortunate to have our prayer group and fellowship here. The experience of praying together far surpasses anything that this site has to offer. To be in communion with God together makes for a true fellowship and how blessed we are to have it. We do also talk and discuss various spiritual questions and truths and being human, we are compelled to do so. There is no prescribed way to truth and Geoff you are very right when you say that the high teachers will not block us from any avenue we wish to take in order to find truth. There are always the longer routes and the shorter ones and if we hit our heads against that brick wall enough times, we will learn to recognize those inevitable dead ends .

Anyone who makes an effort to progress spiritually and looks for truth gets my approval. At least they are making an effort and are not willingly walking around blind and dumb. So many in this world are spiritually dead and this is a tragedy of gigantic proportions. Thank God some are willing to wake up from their slumber and seek truth. If that entails using the intellect as a first step then so be it. Truth will come eventually no matter what approach is taken. Some approaches I relate to well and others are difficult to understand but it is not for me to judge another's journey, only to seek to acknowledge their sincere effort and everyone needs to use whatever faculties that are available to them in order to find their way.Again, God bless them for making an effort.

So my conclusion is that each soul will make their journey to truth and to God in their own way. Some start with the heart, others with their heads. I know what is right for me but I cannot say what is right for another. I can share my story and my journey but I cannot take the road for someone else, it belongs to them alone and is their responsibility. There is no need to defend that journey because it is personal and unique. My responsibility is to respect another's perspective and hopefully come to learn and grow from this acknowledgement. This is the way of love and to be judgemental is not and thank God we are all different and as such ,weave a very interesting tapestry. May God bless every thread therein.

Thanks for bringing up the subject Geoff. Your questioning helps me to define my own perspective and are we not always learning from one another? God bless you brother........Al

[Geoff]

I for one wish to support others in any way I can. If this support requires a more mindful response to a question then I am willing to go there although intellectualism is not my strong suit.

Dear al,

I think that is actually what it is all about. If you don't care for the discussion, so be it, but at least try to be supportive, whatever that may mean. Even if it means saying nothing.

By the way, and we have had this discussion before, I am not sure that you lack any "intellectual abilities". Probably you don't think of yourself that way, but thats all it is, in my view.

hugs
Geoff

[Zara B]

Hi Geoff,

This is a well composed and thoughtful discourse on a very relevant subject. Well done.

For you and I and a few others, we experienced a huge volume of communications on Forums these last 7-8 years. We have seen the profile of the Padgett material explode into the general public and the profile of the messages discussed and published unlike ever seen before! We have communicated with people who have known about the material for multiple decades and who have been experiencing the Divine Love just as long.

I cannot speak on behalf of everyone when I say that if one has truly read and absorbed the essence of the Padgett messages, then one will know that we all need to pray to receive the Love. There are times when we need to be reminded of this but mostly, it is a given that if we are sincere then in our own way we are communing with the Father so to be told this as an opinion - well, is stating the obvious.

I have met people who accept the Love and who are really bright and intelligent people with a wonderful attribute of intellect and also people who are reflective and intuitive. We are so diverse in our individuality that a truly intellectual person may bring forth ideas or concepts, questions or insights that afford true glimpses of Divine workings that benefit all just as an intuitive person can convey a feeling that speaks to us all. The position that is troublesome I have found, is that when one who knows the Truths become an elitist of truth!

Leading on from your article, I see what we are experiencing worldwide is the visibility of people learning how to socialise with this material and experiences of Love and Spirit that has never been seen in such a worldly manner before. The Divine Love has to become a social human experience in order for the experience itself to have any credibility and so because this is still relatively new, the way we see and communicate to each other is helping to shape the social aspects that then may become fluid in the world.

Much love,
Zara

[AlFike]

A lovely response Zara as only the elegant beautiful soul that you are can convey these important insights. I'm so happy that you have taken the time here to respond . And thank you Geoff for so diplomatically saying that you don't think I am stupid . I don't believe I am either but I have in some ways rejected the intellectual argumentative side of me which at it's peak was pretty sharp but lacked the softer edges of a loving expression. So I feel that my reasoning side is not quite up to par and my mind questions far less now as my soul feels the flood of God's Love. I judge that extreme intellectualism is a defence mechanism that keeps God's presence out quite well. I have been there myself in my youth and it did not bring me much joy, just an attempt to feel superior and even that was an illusion. I shudder to think what an insufferable idiot I would be now if I maintained that course. Thank God for His mercy and Love.

I'm intrigued by your comment Zara about how the Divine Love is being discussed in ever wider circles on social media. I can see that the dedication of the likes of you and Geoff and others has brought this about . An important work to be sure. And yes, I agree with you that we are all learning to socialize with the context and culture of Divine Love as the focus. I think we are all just babes in the woods in this regard and it will take many years more of expressing ourselves in this way to find the norm. I think it is so very important that we keep plugging away at it. There is so much for all of us to do on every level and of course we need more Love. God knows the angels encourage us daily with that refrain. Thank you again Zara for your comments. I'm certainly enjoying this conversation. With love......Al

[Zara B]

Hi Al and Geoff and all,

I like reading your account of your experiences Al. I know what you mean by being 'in the Love' and letting the intellectual side take a back seat, so to speak.

The social aspect - I believe - is really significant. To provide an example: when I first posted on the DLF, there was predominantly the Celestial messages published by the two Churches. As we discussed the material in the DLF, what socially arrived was the term "The Padgett Messages". It seemed that this term best described the material in the various publications and was not isolated to one Church or edition of books. We have selected in a language that socially works and now whenever one refers to the material - a lot of us know socially what that means.

Another example is Werner's book, Joseph's publications and my book The Last Guru. What we are seeing right at this time are new books with their stories with selected Padgett messages forming part of their construct and story telling. This means that a wider social audience is being introduced to the language of Jesus and the Celestial teachers, so they are in essence being invited into a social conversation about Love and Spirit and the Father.

The social aspect isn't just the online social networks. We as people form relationships that are social at their foundation. If we look at the Padgett messages and take a teaching such as the Immortality of Divine Love, this language was not present in the socialisation of human relationships in a global community prior to the messages. People were simply not communicating to each other about this truth. Suddenly - people are aware of this Truth about the Divine Love and so we are learning how to socially interact in our communications with each other which in turn helps shape a greater awareness, slowly being pushed into different societies though never forced!

In a very real way understanding this provides real insight into the authenticity of the Divine Love and the work James Padgett did with the spirits simply because much of the teachings and the language the spirits used had never been in social circles as normal conversation. This explains why - for those of us who are aware of Divine Love - have had an interesting time trying to advance the material. Other Churches or spiritualities may use language similar, but is it with the Love and Spirit and Father?

Always love chatting and sharing here,
Zara

[AlFike]

Yes Zara, we are using this language more and more in our social circles too. Lately I have been less shy about sharing with family and others the work we are doing around our Sanctuary Foundation and I have been encouraging them to go on line to this site. I have always been a little guarded about our spiritual life as many in both our families harbour judgement about it. Yet lately we are less concerned about their judgement and feel less inhibited in sharing this vital part of our lives. We don't prostletize but merely report on our activities. Since we are receiving guests from around the world and travel to see other Divine Love followers, it would be an intricate web of deceit if we did not tell the truth. The cat is out of the bag and I dare say that some in our lives must feel we have gone over the edge. Most are curious and supportive however and that door is open just a crack for them to get a glimpse into what is holding our intentions and efforts so firmly.

My dear cousin is terminally ill and Jeanne and I are spending time with him and family in prayer and healing . We are sitting in circle , praying for the Love and I am doing laying on of hands healing. Although this situation is very difficult , it has opened a door for both my cousin and other members of the family to be with God in this way. Our conversations are also linked to the language that you have refered to Zara. This curse has in some ways turned into a blessing. I feel that he is going to go and I am very sad about it but those times together may direct him to the truth when he passes. I know I have many relatives on the other side that walk the Path and I know they will help him . Many of them show up while we pray and I also get support and comfort when this happens . Please include him in your prayers. His name is Greg, I've spoken about him in the request for prayers section.

Our July retreat was a very transformative time for many of us. Since then, I find myself thinking much more about spiritual things, praying more intensely and talking more about these things. I know invariably some of our friends will distance themselves from us as a result but there has also been a wide opening to receive others who are in harmony with these truths. We are building a spiritual family here with a sort of culture that is evolving with it. My soul soars with every new found friend and opportunity to be a channel of God's Love. This is the shift that started last July and the momentum builds as we encounter new people and new experiences. We are building something Zara and I am so happy that we have you and so many others to thank for being a part of this new found gathering of souls. May we all honor and cherish this gift and bring into the world a new understanding of Love and what it is to be in God's grace. May the words flow along with the Love. God bless.....Al

[Terry Adler]

Hello Geoff, Al and Zara,
I just want to thank each of you for your beautiful thoughts and insights; I am deeply moved at reading what you have collectively shared. Zara's re-frame of this conversation as being part of a social movement, a building of community with its own culture and language, resonates strongly for me. Each of you is a fine example of how soul growth augments the mind's abilities, enriches them with a depth of insight and understanding that comes from connection with our Creator. What you have shared motivates me to pray more so my mind can be informed by my soul's knowing as it grows in Love. Thank you!
With love,
Terry

[Sandy]

Hi dear friends,

Just stumbled across this subject "Talking about spiritual things as opposed to praying" and was wondering …

It may be true that “being in our minds solely” keeps our souls from showing, and furthermore it may be true that formulating words, writing (and even more so if in a language different from our native one) demand an alert and active mind, yet: Isn`t it like the more one is praying, the more one feels driven to share, while the more one discusses spiritual things, the more one gets inspired to pray also at the same time ??? Plus this way one may inspire someone else, too ??? Which can`t be a bad thing, right ? Aren`t we here to help and support each other, and doesn`t this include besides praying for each other and for inflowings of the Divine Love to also help each other grow in our understanding of the truths ?

Geoff, I do not remember the remark you are refering to on Mark`s and the Santa Cruz group`s Divine Love Fellowship Forum and in fact have received great inspiration from that website for many years for what I will always be supremely thankful. I certainly hope that comments of that kind will do no damage to any Divine Love forums anywhere anymore, simply because in the end there`s no opposites, but just praying and learning, learning and praying individuals on their individual and yet sharing roads to an ultimate destination called the Celestial Heavens where our minds will be all absorbed into our souls … then … just then.

Unless, of course, one believes that to share should only be allowed to the highest angels and not us mere human beings here on earth … which might be worthy a thought, indeed, but simply does not work - not in the spirit world where, as we read in the messages, it is easier for a little more developed spirits to reach out in their help towards those less advanced ones than it is for way up higher ones to reach them, and it certainly does not work here on earth where anything above earth plane level is a plus … whether to politics, our family and social lives, or to web forums for that matter.

Love ya.

[WernerV]

Thank you Geoff for starting this Thread and thank you to all who are contributing.

You all in a way portray what I feel too.
I think it is important for us to be true to who we are: not perfect yet.
And while here on earth and especially on the internet (on any social media) we need words/language to communicate.
Even if we would become Celestials here on earth, we would still need words/language to communicate and reach out to others. And those words are produced by our minds even though the knowledge can come from our souls.

But it is also a fact that within our paths, each one of us will take his own path within the big road that lead to our Source. So when somebody is interested in something that will not really help him with the inflowing of the Love, but the urge is coming from his soul, then let him be, because it is his (her) path and we all choose our own ways. That's just the beauty of it all.

We should embrace and celebrate our diversity, because each of us will attract different souls to the path of Divine Love. Each of us have people we love to hang out with and others we don't. Well, maybe those others will be attracted to somebody else who has knowledge about the Love too, and only that way we will ever be able to attract as many souls as we can.

It is not because a certain subject doesn't appeal to me, that it is wrong or a waste of time. It could maybe attract somebody else who is searching for truth and will finally find it because of a specific thread that I could not be bothered less with.

So indeed, respect we are all different, walking our own path and that it needs to be like that if we want to be as successful as we can be. Know we all have our common goal: being happy and one with our Source through receiving His Love.

Love, light and blessings, Werner.