Divine Love, Judgment and Life Challenges

[Serge]

Interesting dialogues here. Following Marga M's link to the 11.11 site I feel the midwayers are contacting me a light in the garage went on and off today and though not electrical the door knob on our front door knocks at pertinent times...plus I am frequently drawn to 11.11 on our bed side clock and my tablet.
I like a Sedona Method question...'Can I let go of wanting to rid myself of judging others?' Or 'Can I just welcome the fact I judge others?' Sometimes words just pop up, it's the clinging to them after they have left where I get stuck oft times. This world will always bring up stuff for us who are on a conscious spiritual journey that is its job....some place in God's creation has to for us to develope.. and its Mother Earth.
I could be judgemental and say WHC has changed from what I loved about it, now its format will be more DL based...that's OK though it just teaches me things change, what is is. Nothing wrong with DL and Padgetts messages it is just another slant on the truth. And after too many years seeking I realize we have to honour our own truths. Coming together as a physical or cyber group is great, though there will always be differences of opinion. Some read more than others, what is important as many have written here is we accept things as they are and as they come and see we are in one loving being, interdependent and everlasting.

[Jan]

Hi everyone,
I have been following the thread on Divine Love, Judgment and Life Challenges and I am perplexed as credibility of the Urantia book when it is in direct contradiction with Padgett Messages.

One such contradiction is that the Urantia states that there was Rebellion with Satan and Lucifier (see exert from Urantia below) however Jesus and our Celestial Angels numerous times tell Mr. Padgett that there has never been a rebellion nor a Lucifer or Satan. (See Padgett Message at the bottom of the page).

I too truly want to learn as much as I can about life and our existence, but not when it takes away from the truths delivered through the Padgett messages and other messages from the Celestial Angels of which took so long to be revealed to us.
A beautiful love and respect to each of you.
Jan

From the Urantia Book: The Planetary Rebellion

(754.1) 67:0.1 THE problems associated with human existence on Urantia are impossible of understanding without a knowledge of certain great epochs of the past, notably the occurrence and consequences of the planetary rebellion. Although this upheaval did not seriously interfere with the progress of organic evolution, it did markedly modify the course of social evolution and of spiritual development. The entire superphysical history of the planet was profoundly influenced by this devastating calamity.

1. The Caligastia Betrayal

(754.2) 67:1.1 For three hundred thousand years Caligastia had been in charge of Urantia when Satan, Lucifer’s assistant, made one of his periodic inspection calls. And when Satan arrived on the planet, his appearance in no way resembled your caricatures of his nefarious majesty. He was, and still is, a Lanonandek Son of great brilliance. “And no marvel, for Satan himself is a brilliant creature of light.”

(754.3) 67:1.2 In the course of this inspection Satan informed Caligastia of Lucifer’s then proposed “Declaration of Liberty,” and as we now know, the Prince agreed to betray the planet upon the announcement of the rebellion. The loyal universe personalities look with peculiar disdain upon Prince Caligastia because of this premeditated betrayal of trust. The Creator Son voiced this contempt when he said: “You are like your leader, Lucifer, and you have sinfully perpetuated his iniquity. He was a falsifier from the beginning of his self-exaltation because he abode not in the truth.”

VS.

Padgett Messages:

January 3rd, 1916.
Received by James Padgett
Washington D.C.

I am here, Jesus.

I am with you tonight to warn you against letting any doubt enter your mind or heart, as to our actually writing to you, for we and none other are actually in communication with you.

The book that you read (Pastor Russell - On Spiritualism) is a snare and a lie, for there are no angels who have become devils as the author of that book declares. Never were there any angels who through ambition or any other reason revolted against the power of government of God, and thereby lost their estate as angels. Never was there any Lucifer, and never were there any angels who were thrown from the battlements of heaven into hell, as it has been written and as I told you before, there are no devils and no Satan, considered as real persons and fallen angels.

The only spirits in the spirit world are those who at one time were mortals and who lived lives on earth, shorter or longer, and whenever angels are mentioned in the Bible, or rather in the New Testament in places which contain my sayings or those of the apostles, and I mean those sayings which were actually said, the word angel always refers to the spirit of some mortal who had passed the line between life and death as commonly understood.

I desire to tell you of these things at large very soon and to instruct you as to who were the angels of God that are supposed to have had an existence prior to the creation of man and of the world; and who the inhabitants of heaven were before the Spirit of God entered into man and caused him to become a living soul as the Bible says. But the time is not yet ripe for me to instruct you in these matters, because there are so many more important truths to be first taught you, truths which are vital to man's salvation and happiness to those on earth and in the spirit world.

But this you must believe, that no devils ever write you or in any manner manifest to or through any of the numerous mediums who are used to show the existence of spirits of men in the spirit world, no matter whether these mediums be good or evil. There are spirits of all kinds just as there are mortals of all kinds, having all the traits and characteristics of mortals, and some of these spirits may be justly called wicked or evil spirits, and even devils. But they are nothing more or less than spirits such as I describe.

l know that the belief of the majority of mankind is that there are such things as devils and that they are independent creations of God, made by Him to tempt and inflict all kind of trouble and unhappiness on mortals, and because of the great number of years that these beliefs have existed, and the fact that many of the churches still teach that such devils do exist, and are at all times trying to tempt and injure men, it is hard and will be difficult to induce men to believe that there are no such things as devils, which is the truth.

[brother dave k.]

Thank you for that Jan.

[Geoff]

One such contradiction is that the Urantia states that there was Rebellion with Satan and Lucifier (see exert from Urantia below) however Jesus and our Celestial Angels numerous times tell Mr. Padgett that there has never been a rebellion nor a Lucifer or Satan. (See Padgett Message at the bottom of the page).

Dear Jan,

In life sometimes the truth hits you right between the eyes, and you have only two choices. Close your eyes, or open them. This issue is exactly that.

I KNOW there is a midwayer called ABC22 (and many others) and now James and Al also know that. What is the significance of that? Well ABC22 is one of 1,111 who did not follow Lucifer. If you have had the experiences that I have had, with midwayers, and you know that they tell that they were there, at the crucifixion, and that they were not locked up at Pentecost, but that 873 of their brothers and sisters were locked up, then it frankly leaves one no place to go but to accept that Lucifer existed. That does not mean "the devil" existed because Lucifer while misguided, and deliberately ignored Father's Will, was not the creature that a Church would call a "devil".

Can I explain what Padgett channeled? Not easily. I can have a go, but I think the simplest explanation is he got it wrong, and to that effect an extremely good medium has channelled exactly that in respect of the issue of evolution vs creation. If you read that message on my web site you will see I have added a caveat at the bottom.

Is this relevant to the main thrust of Divine Love. Of course not. Its a very minor issue. If it offends your view of the perfectness of James Padgett as a medium, then I humbly suggest you take him off the pedestal that he would not want to be on.

hugs
Geoff

[AlFike]

Ah Jan, you have stumbled on a key issue here and a discussion that has been going on between Geoff and I for some time. Combining teachings may lead to greater enlightenment or extreme confusion. For some like Geoff, picking and choosing through in depth study of channeled materials and other publications is an important part of their journey. I respect that because in essence none of us can choose for or direct another upon their journey towards truth. That's between the individual and God. I choose to dedicate myself to the study and practice of what the Celestials have to say.It has never failed me and is demonstrably true in many regards. Geoff has indicated on numerous occasions that this is not good enough in his judgment. I insist that it is. Different strokes for different folks. So we all have our different paths to take and enquiries to make but in the end we will all land up in the same place ( or at least one of two heavens).When I make a commitment, I stick with it. Whether that be a friendship or a spiritual path. I have read a lot over the years but nothing resonates like Padgett.

As for recognizing the existence of the 11:11 spirits, I saw them. They do exist. Am I drawn to them? No, because I sensed no Love there and that is my pursuit and my passion. That is not to say that there is no love period, just love that I cannot discern or feel and that is my touchstone when I look into something spiritual. I want to grow my soul and am not so keen on growing my intellectual knowledge. That will come as the soul perceives truth. I am also not steeped in ignorance or dumb as a post. I battled with my material mind for many years. Now I feel free from that tension, at least to a large part. The soul is winning and my inner condition is soaring. This works Jan. It takes time and effort to receive the Love but in the end IMHO it is the higher road. Am I missing anything in this rather narrow pursuit? Probably, but like the impoverished person who is happy in their simplicity, it all feels right for me. What is right for you Jan is your business. My only hope is that you will go within to confirm what is truth as the Spirit of Truth will prevail and confirm for you what your soul already knows. Always let God lead you to truth. Your soul will sing when you comprehend it. If you are filled with doubt, either it is error or you are not yet ready to understand it. Either way, everything has it's own timing and never abandon what you know to be true because something else that is contradictory appears more attractive to your mind. May the truth always prevail and stay firmly lodged in you consciousness and may God guide you through the forest of untruth to that sun filled meadow of Divine Truth. We'll all get there in our own way and our own time. With much love and appreciation to all my friends.......Al

[DennisT]

Ah, the thread that keeps on giving!

Thank you, Jan, for brining your question here. I appreciate the exact issue that you raised, and you've heard two very fine responses. I too have read a great deal of the Urantia book, but I stopped because it just did not resonate within my soul as much as the Truths contained within the Padgett messages. Maybe I stopped reading too early, and Geoff, please let me know if the last 300 pages are any better than the first several hundred. To me, the Urantia book is long, detailed and very dry in that there is not much in it (at least for me) that is practical for my own salvation.

That does not mean that I've stopped reading, in fact I enjoyed very much another book Geoff recommended or at least mentioned here on the forum. It too was supposed to be a channeled book from our master and elder brother, Jesus. Was it a great book? Probably not, but it did not seem to contradict the Truths of the Padgett Messages. Was it truly a channeled work by Jesus? Who knows, but as Al mentioned, no need to abandon what we know to be true.

So I continue to read and read, and I find a very constant and consistent theme among all the Divine Love messages, regardless if they are 100+ years old or only a few days old. That very point is why I am still here today. The message of Divine Love has not changed since it was clarified by Jesus through Mr. Padgett. All the DL channeled messages since have been consistent with Padgett in regards to Divine Love. Where they do differ, I agree with Geoff -- it probably just doesn't change the main thrust of the Divine Love message, and therefore, is not relevant. It may be interesting, it may help round out the story, some history, or whatever else, but overall, it's probably not all that relevant to our precious message of God's Love for us!

With lots of love and big hugs,
Dennis

[Geoff]

Maybe I stopped reading too early, and Geoff, please let me know if the last 300 pages are any better than the first several hundred.

Dear Dennis,

The Urantia Book consists technically of four major sections, and its 2000 pages! The last one, as best I know, did not come from the same "source" i.e. mortal as the first three. However many who love the Urantia book love the last section best. It is the Life and Teachings of Jesus. I think this may prove the largest challenge for a Padgett follower however.

There is an issue, that we have done our very level best to "prove" and that is when Joseph the Father died. Again no big deal, almost who cares. But its pretty central to the Ubook and Jesus' life as told in that book. And to add to confusion, contemporary messages from Ubook followers continue using the "fact" that Joseph died while Jesus was a teenager as a teaching point. How can an advanced spirit being use what I consider to be wrong, as the point of a teaching?

This is what I have thought about for many years. And my conclusion is that celestials and other angelic beings view "physical facts" like bits of a painting. It matters not whether it ever happened, if they can use it to make a point they will. But I will add that to me the section in that Life of Jesus concerning the crucifixion, and the days before and after really resonated for me. We did ask Judas about all this, and I think it was him, or perhaps another celestial that said only bits of the book (presumably that last section) were actually channeled, the rest was "added" by humans to make the whole thing cohesive.

To me, the Urantia book is long, detailed and very dry

Yes I agree, but consider this. the Ubook has sold over 1 million copies, would have at least that many followers, has been translated to many languages and outranks us by an immense amount. That does not belittle the inherent worth or value of what Padgett received, but it surely should be cause for reflection? And indeed I have given it many years reflection. My conclusion is this:

1. Creating "churches" in the Padgett tradition may have been a mistake. The Urantia community never did.

2. Publishing the books as church books was a fatal (or near fatal mistake) even though their decision to do this was based on getting relief from tax. But I doubt they would ever have made any money on the books, unlike the Urantia Foundation, which made a very large amount of money, and would have paid tax. None of the later editions of TGRABJ are available in libraries or through book channels. Its a "church" book so it gets ignored. This is one very big reason why I will soon have printed TGRABJs that I published, and that will be found at Amazon. Like the Kindle ebooks that are now there. The first volumes Dr Stone published under his name did get into USA libraries and can still be borrowed, yes first editions (1941 and 1950) are still in the USA inter-library scheme.

3. The Urantia community right from the start was cohesive, and professional. That meant they had the financial resources to publish a very high quality book in the 1950s. I say no more, because its all here. This community here is perhaps our last chance (in my lifetime!) to work together, to try and project a common vision, to collectively achieve things we can't do individually. In short to begin to follow the guidance that is there.

To me, ........there is not much in it (at least for me) that is practical for my own salvation.

Perhaps you missed this:

Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel--literally experience--the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father's LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.

Paper 3 - The Attributes of God

Now that is real gold, in fact it contains a fact not set out in our 2500 messages. But I agree the inevitable conclusion of most who read the Urantia book is that salvation (Ie reaching the Celestial) is just a matter of time, and that nothing really needs to be done. Certainly the notion that the heavens will close is not in that book, although I think perhaps its just described in very dry and substantially different terms. Because it does say that different mortals have different ascension options.

hugs
Geoff

[AlFike]

I find both your posts Dennis and Geoff a thought provoking read. Dennis, you and I are on the same page and I resonate with all you have said there. I think you have reaffirmed for me why I was not drawn to read the Urantia. A book has to stimulate or inspire me if I am to stick with it. But I am thoroughly convinced that Geoff and I have very different wiring in our brains. I do however completely agree with your analysis Geoff of why the Padgett materials have not been widely known. Too much of the old paradigm and not enough marketing. Although I'm sure that Urantia became well known because of word of mouth. It is also intellectually stimulating and does not carry all the baggage associated with Christianity. The story of Jesus and his message has been so distorted, twisted and used for the purposes of abuse of power that our beloved Master has been tainted in so many minds with all this negativity. The language of TGRABJ is very Christian and a bit formal and I'm sure Urantia seems very fresh in comparison. Lots of strikes against us folks as we get tarred by the same brush as those who question the fundamentals of Christianity plus we are viewed with suspicion by many because of the spiritualist slant. We have an uphill climb and only God is going to find a way for us to teach these truths to a wider audience. Our Celestial friends keep saying that there is a plan so keep your ears to the ground and listen because we are all meant to play a part and wade into that flow of God's Love and Will. I know that we all want to be there. More prayer, more Love more commitment and more faith. Things appear to be coming together so changes may be just around the corner. Lets hope that we are all still here to see them. Much love........Al

[Dean]

http://1111angels.net/old_files/E_TA_Index.htm

For those that may want to get the gist before buying the book. The couple of messages that I looked at were right in line with DL.

Geoff - I completely empathize with you!!! (And I - of all people - am totally amused that people think that you are in anyway abrasive . . . ) I haven't met Geoff in person, but I do know a bit about him via hearsay from reliable sources. As I was reading The Richard Messages the other day I actually thought of Geoff as the message says that one knows that they have experienced Divine Love when it shows in their actions. I know for a fact that is true of Geoff (in addition to any sensations he has described to me before).

Peace
Dean

[Geoff]

Dear Dean and Al,

That is very kind of you Dean, and good to see you chiming in.

I have as usual been thinking about Al's reply, and it occurs to me that Al is really simply following a desire to perfect himself. I am not sure if he is driven by anything else. But I know that I am.

Once I had absorbed the P messages, which took a few years, I actually asked Father to guide me to other sources of teachings on Divine Love. And my thinking was as follows. As long as we maintain we are the only source of this Truth, we fall straight bang back into the classic Christian argument, that only Jesus saves. And by gosh that annoys people. So I wanted to prove, to at least myself, that there were other sources. Of course we have a channeled message that tells us there are. Along the way, as i shared my finds in the DL community that existed at that time, I found they were very rarely willing to accept that what I found was genuine. Frankly it was as if they had a great need to be exclusive - the only pure source of Truth. And I sure hope this community never goes that way. Because its the kiss of death. I do think Padgett is the simplest and most comprehensive source of advanced Truth, but I don't see any need to rubbish other sources, which I see all too often from those that proclaim to be DL followers.

The other benefit that I discovered was that I can talk to people where they are. I can discuss their teachings and why ours are different, if indeed they are. To me this is a vital ability. Because without it I simply can't be as effective doing what i choose to do.

hugs
Geoff